But then again, had I been in Sweden or Greece today, I would be missing the July rains all the same.
So this is the price one pays for being a bi-cultural miscegenate, eh? Emotional ambivalence for the seasons!
At brandondedicant the author Brandon writes: "This is a conversation culled from the Neokoroi list. Unfortunately the thread was quickly hijacked by a flamer, and didn't get as many responses as might be hoped. Still, since He Epistole is short on submissions currently, I thought it might make for an interesting article." Here I add my answers (with a bit of modification to the format).
(a somewhat imaginary conversation)
Atheist - Thanks for taking the time to speak about your polytheism.
Todd - One of this can only be answered for yourself.
Brandon - I'll try to answer as best I can, speaking only for myself of course.
Aldrin - How is my theism different from traditional theism? I'm not sure what you mean by 'traditional theism'. I know for one that belief patterns can be extremely complex, that they cannot be so easily boxed as to how they should be be practised by individuals. But I suppose my theism is different from Mainstream Christian theism in the sense that I don't believe in the "supernatural". Everything that happens is natural. Everything has a rational explanation in nature. However this is not to say that rational experiences are to be devoid of spirituality. Thunder and lightning are natural phenomena with obvious rational explanations to us modern folk but at the same time a paganus like myself would certainly find something spiritual in watching them 'work it'.
In regard to the Greekness of my theology, I worship the Gods in a Greek approach amongst many understandings (I am a syncretist) but they are not really Greek. The gods are the gods. Raw forces of the universe. The only difference between my stand and that of the conventional western atheist's is that I try to build personal relationships with these forces and that I anthromorphise them guiltlessly.
Atheist - If you could elaborate on your belief... Like your version of the Nicene creed.
Todd - This isn't a credal religion. Hellenismos varied from city to city, and from era to era, over at least hundreds of cities and 1500 years. This creates a need for experience, for experiment. Instead of creed, Hellenismos has philosophy, myth, and prophecy - each of which requires interpretation. This process is the prehistory of modern science.
Brandon - Yes, as Todd said, it's not a credal religion. It's an orthopraxy (emphasis on practice) rather than an orthodoxy (emphasis on belief). I work with my gods, rather than believing in them per se. Let me explain that a bit:
For me there's a crucial difference between "believing in" and "working with" the gods. Strictly speaking, I don't believe in the gods, I suspend disbelief. Then I work with them as if they were distinct, real-existing entities, just seeing what happens. Philosophically this view is called Pyrrhonian Skepticism: in the absence of compelling evidence for or against a claim, the rational thing to do is suspend belief either way, and carry on in a spirit of inquiry.
I find that polytheism provokes a powerful response in me. Perhaps it is psychological, perhaps not. Whatever it is, it provokes a clearer and more compelling response than henotheism, duotheism, monotheism, etc. Being able to address a deity as a distinct, unique being in the world, not unlike a person, accesses something very basic and primitive. Call it anthropomorphism and I won't argue. It may very well be. At any rate, as a result, more of my being is stimulated in ritual. It just comes more natural, and provokes a more holistic response. And it allows for a more steady, grounded focus.
But again, that's just my belief, and I wouldn't say it's necessarily prevalent among the majority of polytheists.
Aldrin - I nod at Todd. Belief and practice for many modern pagans are not credal. Most of us believe that religion is experiential, experimental, and philosophical. Continuous thought, analysis, evaluation, and scrutiny of what one believes in is greatly encouraged.
Atheist - Are your gods sentient? Influence the earth today? Answer prayers? Make themselves known to men and women?
Todd - Yes, yes, yes and yes.
Brandon - I work with them that way, yes.
Aldrin -
Are my gods sentient?
I would believe so, swearing by personal experience, but I might find difficulty in proving that to the lot, so I will not. The sentience of gods (albeit non-human) are through personal interpretation.
Influence the earth today?
Yes, of course, as they have always had - do not (e.g.) thunder and lightning influence the earth today? Think of god as a synonym of force.
Answers prayers?
Prayer is not always about "asking something". In fact, to me, prayer is more of reflection, meditation, focus, grounding, etc. Asking for something would be a petition, one form of prayer/ritual. I do not believe in asking external forces for personal desires. Not always. Prayer to me is not faith but acknowledgment. The gods will not do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. By praying for safety every time I commute from my place to the office, I am not throwing the responsibility to some external force - I am acknowledging the fact that it is a dangerous world beyond my home and that I have to be extra alert, and practise cunning wit to ensure my safety. The God of Travellers protects those who keep their senses open on the road.
Makes themselves known to men and women?
Yes, they make themselves known day by day. At every point in our lives. They are there. But whether one translates their presence as sentient or not or what-have-you is subject to personal interpretation (yet again). If my history is correct, Yahweh was originally a Canaanite storm god (originally a Hurrian version of the Babylonian-Sumerian Ea-Enki, merged with the Canaanite El Elyon, Yam Nahar, and Baal Haddad). He was vengeful and arrogant to some people but could have been compassionate to others. No one can say for sure whether storms are vengeful or compassionate of course. At least not in the human sense. Yahweh, or Zeus for that matter, is just the way he is. It is in our various interpretations of him that differ.
Atheist - What makes you think they exist instead of say, the Hindu gods?
Todd - You're expressing this in Abrahamic formulas. The ancients, whether Hellenic, Egyptian, Indian or other, did not understand themselves as "following different religions" or even, necessarily following different Gods. It was always understood that the God spoken of as Dionysos in Hellas might be known under other names elsewhere.
And it was always understood that when one experiences the presence of a God and names that God Apollon, one is being only relatively accurate; the Gods cannot be fully known. So that Hellenismos means not yielding to a dogma - on faith - but walking into a vocabulary, inserting oneself into that vocabulary.
Brandon - And exclusivity is not implied. Just because the Greek gods exist, it doesn't mean other gods don't. Furthermore, we are not duty-bound to worship gods just because they exist. Quite to the contrary, we worship the ones that call to us, or that we feel called toward, and that we establish a relationship with. So even though we worship Greek gods, we don't have to also worship Hindu gods, Chinese gods, and so forth.
The precise relationships between gods of different peoples gets complicated. All kinds of theories have been proposed through the ages, and in the end it comes down to your personal interpretation. As Todd said, some ancient Greeks--though not all--were inclined to believe that foreign gods might be the same Greek gods worshipped under different names. Other polytheists, such as the Egyptians, saw god-names as able to be combined and separated somehow, sometimes worshipped as Amon-Ra, other times as Amon and Ra. So, it's complicated enough just comparing different polytheistic traditions. If you throw monotheist traditions in there too, where some traditions are making mutually exclusive claims, then it really gets fun.
Aldrin - I nod at both of you.
Atheist - Are they still gods in the traditional sense then?
Brandon - That depends what the traditional sense is, I suppose. If that means classical monotheism, where gods are characterized by omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience, then no they are not that way. If the traditional sense just means real-existing beings, in some respect outside the self, rather than some manner of allegory or archetypal expression wholly within the self, then yes, they are gods in that sense.
Aldrin - I am not sure what you mean by this. My understanding is that people have different ideas on what 'gods' are.
Atheist - Is it deistic?
Brandon - Again, that depends on the meaning of deistic.
If deistic just means theism again, i.e. divine beings really existing, as opposed to an atheistic or agnostic or other view, then yes, they are deistic.
If deistic means deism, i.e. a divine creator that does not interfere in the laws of nature, then no, they are not deistic. Mythically speaking, polytheist gods may or may not have created the world (in many traditions they just gave it its current order). They do act in the world. "Interfere" would be an unfair word though. IMO they are part of the world, not unlike us. They don't stand outside of nature, like a divine watchmaker. They grow out of it, just as we do. And when they act, they act through the laws of nature, not against them. For just about any phenomenon that a polytheist might express in divine terms, there can likely be found a "natural" or "scientific" explanation, without reference to deity. The difference IMO is what happens to the polytheist as a result of his/her working with divine terms--the "powerful response" mentioned above. This, in polytheist terms, is a divine blessing received, the power of communion.
There may be those who believe in miracles in the strong sense, as the impossible happening, divine will as against the laws of nature. But I know nothing of that. I speak for myself.
Aldrin - Wiki says: "Deism is the belief that there is a God that created the physical universe but does not interfere with it."
If this is what you mean by deism then, no, my belief system contains very little deism.
Atheist - Well, thank you for your opinions.
Brandon - Hope that helps.
Todd - In the Gods.
I think that one of the problems with modern westernized societies is we have set up this false "either/or" dichotomy when it comes to our sexual identities. People are regarded as either completely heterosexual or completely homosexual with very little wiggle room in between (perhaps a few bisexuals who can't make up their minds). Rather, I think that each of us falls somewhere along a sexual continuum - a bell curve somewhat skewed towards the heterosexual side of the equation.
In ancient societies, as well as in many current ones outside of the western world, this concept was well understood. The ancient Greeks are perhaps the most famous example. Although the literature is full of examples of rampant homosexual behaviour, very few would have identified themselves as gay. They were merely sexual beings doing what they felt like without regard to labels. Over the past few millenia, western society somehow lost that connection and has thus suffered under a strict, sexually repressive moral code.
In a way it has only been the freedom of the Internet that has once again revealed the full depth of human sexual desire and the diverse ways in which those urges can be expressed. It has shown that there is so much out there that can't be easily pigeonholed into neat little categories.
So where do we go from here? The gay rights movement has served an important role in liberating all of our sexualities, but I think it is now time to move past such labels and embrace a true sexual continuum for all people. At least I think that has to be the ultimate goal.
Posted by Brian at 20:32 Wednesday, 9 April 2008
Also, Aboriginals see sexuality as being on a continuum.Some even have up to 8 genders in their traditions. Traditionally they do not have our western "gay" or "straight" boxes that we tend to want to shove people into. sexuality is not as static as society would like us to believe
Interesting topic!
I've always explained to people that I think homosexuality and heterosexuality fall along the same continuum. My ex-husband is gay, but as we have a son, he probably falls closer to the center. His partner, who can't even think about being with a woman obviously falls a couple of standard deviations farther out.
Lets be honest Brian. Any gay mob would have to have pretty low standards to 'sodomize' a fatty like you. Too many burgers?
My sentiments exactly. Hence my latest blog, LOL. Hey, maybe my DNA test would point to greek origins?
Yet another interesting point you've made. Cheers!
A.
Alláh-u-abhá Brian,
I agree wholeheartedly. I have an aunt who says "I am not a lesbian, I just have never met the right man to make me straight" and I think we all fall along those lines. I think the most heterosexual of us are just far more attracted to women, and far more socio-culturally comfortable with that aspect of their sexuality.
As someone who has come to realize relatively recently that I am equally attracted to both gender, I have noticed how strong my culturally ingrained "straightness" is.
Attraction ought not need to fit into a label. We are attracted to who we are attracted too, and that should be label enough.
God Bless,
Ruhi (Gerald)
There we go. *THUMBS UP* Excellent one, Brian. Simply done yet beautifully.
(double post)
Ah, but until gay rights are set, how many people will be willing to go over to that end of the spectrum? It's not time to stop fighting yet.
Which doesn't mean I don't agree with you about the spectrum, because I do.
Over the past few millenia, western society somehow lost that connection and has thus suffered under a strict, sexually repressive moral code.
There's no question about how the connection was lost, is there?
I think you're absolutely right on this. Surely there is something libidinous about the male penchant for bonding through sports, for example.
Same gender sexual activity in prisons, for example, is far in excess of the incidence of classic homosexuality in the general population. This suggests you're right: sexuality is sexuality.
By the way, Brian, permission to cross-post in my blog please? With your name and url of course.
I've thought this for some time. I consider myself primarily hetero, but I did have an intense sexual crush on a colleague at one time. She was married, so I never said anything, but I imagine if I thought she had been receptive I might have done...
I think if there weren't this strict delineation people might fall in love (or just lust) and have sex with either gender at various times. Gay people are more likely to have experimented this way, it seems.
Great comments everybody (except for the wit who called me a fatty). I especially like the personal stories that have backed up my thoughts.
Aldrin, yes you have my permission to cross-post.
Chaplain, in that exact paragraph you're talking about I started spelling out the somehow a little more clearly, but I didn't want to sidetrack the main point.
It is starting to seem obvious that most people would act very different if there wasn't this strict seperation of sexual choices. Far from being "immoral", I think embracing our true sexualities might actually be the healthiest thing we could do psychologically.
From those of us who have been trying for years to express this point, substantiated by our own lives, thank you.
There's too much either/or, black/white thinking on a host of topics. Life is far more gray than many people make it out to be.